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[CTPP] more on journey to work and Millennials

by Elaine.Murakami＠dot.gov

In case you haven't seen these, we posted new profile sheets that use the 2006-2008 ACS and the 2011-2013 ACS Public Use Microdata Sample. In these profiles, Baby Boomers are defined as those born between 1946 and 1964, and Millennials are defined as those born between 1983 and 2000. For the 2006-2008 ACS, many of the Millennials were not yet of working age. The geography is limited only to those Counties for which PUMA geography has matching boundaries. http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/census_issues/american_community_survey/pr… I have seen some recent forecasts about declining gasoline prices, so we will see how this impacts the mode to work and auto ownership for younger workers in the near future. Elaine Murakami FHWA Office of Planning 206-220-4460 (in Seattle)

10 years

[CTPP] ABJ30(1) Call for posters: Uses of Multiple Data Sets for Transportation Planning

by Mara Kaminowitz

The Census Data for Transportation Planning Subcommittee of the Urban Transportation Data and Information Systems Committee, ABJ30(1) invites you to submit posters for a session focusing on the innovative use of multiple data sets including Census data for transportation planning and related applications. Posters will be displayed at the TRB Annual Meeting in Washington, DC, January 2016. Authors of the most innovative posters may be invited to present at the subcommittee meeting. Abstracts are due Friday, September 11, 2015. More information, including what to send and who to send it to, can be found at trbcensus.com/CallforPosters2016.html *Mara Kaminowitz, GISP*GIS Coordinator ......................................................................... *Baltimore Metropolitan Council* Offices @ McHenry Row 1500 Whetstone Way Suite 300 Baltimore, MD 21230 410-732-0500 ext. 1030 mkaminowitz(a)baltometro.org www.baltometro.org

10 years

Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle

by Polzin

The findings Alan noted have been consistent over time and are always a little disquieting to someone who happens on them and then loses some confidence in the data. I do think folk underestimate the extent to which car loaning goes on in some sociodemographic groups. Part of the reason those millennials don't own cars is because they are still driving mommy or daddy's car. Using extended family member, friends or neighbors vehicles is quite common in many areas. Yes it would be nice if we had data confirmation. Steve Polzin -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Ken.Cervenka(a)dot.gov Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 2:49 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle I don't have clear "facts" to share at my fingertips, but this kind of situation occurs in other survey environments as well. I suspect Alan's thoughts are somewhat correct, but it would sure be nice to back this up with examples from personal interview surveys (in-the-field intercepts or CATI approaches) where there was a "logic check" for occurrences where a person indicated they drove alone, but yet they previously answered a "vehicles in the household" question by saying none. So a well-done logic check might at least prompt the interviewer to ask for a clarification. I am, however, not aware of this actually being fielded. -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of ALANPISARSKI Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 9:51 AM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle This has been around too long to be explained by car2go or others like it but it may be adding to the numbers. We have often just attributed it to using friends' cars or uncle Harry's. some may interpret the census question which asks about household vehicles available as not pertaining to a company car. Depends how they interpret family or available. We have seen the rise in this and in "Other" with the Census unable to explain it or give greater info for us to interpret. We need a small study of "Other". I have interpreted Other to be, e.g., a school bus driver who brings the bus home-but it's not a household vehicle available. AEP -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Greta Ryan Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 9:26 AM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle No, he didn't give any numbers he was just explaining how car sharing works and what someone could use it for. He didn't explicitly say it was happening. You could probably talk with the car share company in Cambridge. I would think they would be interested in your situation. -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Cook, Cliff Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 9:10 AM To: <ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net> Subject: Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle Greta Was Nick Hill able to provide any numbers to back this up? We do have a robust car share network in Cambridge so that could be part of the answer. Cliff Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 23, 2015, at 8:52 AM, "Greta Ryan" <GRyan(a)richmondregional.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > I was just at an ITSVA conference where Nick Hill from Car2Go spoke. Possibly these people use such a service to commute. > > Greta Ryan > > Senior Planner > Richmond Regional Planning District Commission Suite 200 > 9211 Forest Hill Avenue > Richmond VA 23235 > (804) 323-2033 > Richmond Regional TPO > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net > [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Cook, Cliff > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:41 AM > To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > Cc: Krause, Henry > Subject: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a > Vehicle > > We are preparing an analysis of the 2006-10 CTPP flow data to support > our transportation planning program. An issue that has come up is that we are seeing a small but noticeable proportion of commuters who state they have 0 vehicles available but whose primary commute mode is driving alone. Aside from the obvious explanation of making a mistake when completing the ACS survey can anyone provide thoughts on how we might explain this anomaly? > > Thanks > > Cliff Cook > > Clifford Cook, Planning Information Manager Cambridge Community Development Department > 344 Broadway, Cambridge, MA. 02139 > > www.cambridgema.gov/CDD > ccook(a)cambridgema.gov > M: 8:30-8:00 T-Th: 8:30-5:00 F: 8:30-Noon > 617/349-4656 > 617/349-4669 FAX > 617/349-4621 TTY > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ctpp-news mailing list > ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news > > > _______________________________________________ > ctpp-news mailing list > ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news

10 years

Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle

by ALANPISARSKI

This has been around too long to be explained by car2go or others like it but it may be adding to the numbers. We have often just attributed it to using friends' cars or uncle Harry's. some may interpret the census question which asks about household vehicles available as not pertaining to a company car. Depends how they interpret family or available. We have seen the rise in this and in "Other" with the Census unable to explain it or give greater info for us to interpret. We need a small study of "Other". I have interpreted Other to be, e.g., a school bus driver who brings the bus home-but it's not a household vehicle available. AEP -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Greta Ryan Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 9:26 AM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle No, he didn't give any numbers he was just explaining how car sharing works and what someone could use it for. He didn't explicitly say it was happening. You could probably talk with the car share company in Cambridge. I would think they would be interested in your situation. -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Cook, Cliff Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 9:10 AM To: <ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net> Subject: Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle Greta Was Nick Hill able to provide any numbers to back this up? We do have a robust car share network in Cambridge so that could be part of the answer. Cliff Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 23, 2015, at 8:52 AM, "Greta Ryan" <GRyan(a)richmondregional.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > I was just at an ITSVA conference where Nick Hill from Car2Go spoke. Possibly these people use such a service to commute. > > Greta Ryan > > Senior Planner > Richmond Regional Planning District Commission Suite 200 > 9211 Forest Hill Avenue > Richmond VA 23235 > (804) 323-2033 > Richmond Regional TPO > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Cook, Cliff > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:41 AM > To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > Cc: Krause, Henry > Subject: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle > > We are preparing an analysis of the 2006-10 CTPP flow data to support our transportation planning program. An issue that has come up is that we are seeing a small but noticeable proportion of commuters who state they have 0 vehicles available but whose primary commute mode is driving alone. Aside from the obvious explanation of making a mistake when completing the ACS survey can anyone provide thoughts on how we might explain this anomaly? > > Thanks > > Cliff Cook > > Clifford Cook, Planning Information Manager Cambridge Community Development Department > 344 Broadway, Cambridge, MA. 02139 > > www.cambridgema.gov/CDD > ccook(a)cambridgema.gov > M: 8:30-8:00 T-Th: 8:30-5:00 F: 8:30-Noon > 617/349-4656 > 617/349-4669 FAX > 617/349-4621 TTY > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ctpp-news mailing list > ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news > > > _______________________________________________ > ctpp-news mailing list > ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news

10 years

[CTPP] Association of Public Data Users (APDU) webinar on Weds, July 29

by Elaine.Murakami＠dot.gov

http://apdu.org/2015/06/18/measuring-america-on-the-move-free-and-accessibl… I have organized a webinar for APDU. There will be 3 topics: 1. Census Transportation Planning Products (CTPP) -- Penelope Weinberger, AASHTO 2. National Household Travel Survey (NHTS) -- Adella Santos, FHWA and Jasmy Methipara, Macrosys 3. Transportation Secure Data Center (TSDC) -- Jeff Gonder, NREL This webinar is FREE for APDU members, otherwise it is $50 for non-members. FHWA and BTS have long been members of APDU. Hope you will attend! Also, the APDU annual conference is coming up on September 1-2. http://apdu.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/APDU_2015_Annual_Conference_Agen… Elaine Murakami FHWA Office of Planning 206-220-4460 (in Seattle)

10 years

Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle

by Graham

I've had a suspicion, but I haven't tested it... My suspicion is: Some share of people misunderstand ACS question #32 and decide that "rode to work" does not include the driver. I asked Census Bureau staff last winter... They don't know why. From: Sarah K Heimel (CENSUS/DSSD FED) [mailto:Sarah.K.Heimel(a)census.gov] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2015 5:33 PM To: Graham, Todd Subject: Re: ACS questionnaire wording Hi Todd, I hope you had an enjoyable holiday. I spoke with the Census subject matter expert on commuting statistics about your question from last month. He said that they are aware of the same anomaly that you and the transportation planners have seen, which has apparently been appearing in the data for a while now, at least since 2000. He thus ruled out my hypothesis of the emerging car-sharing option. In 2006, Census modified the allocation algorithm slightly to jointly assess these two variables when in need of allocation. Still, there seems to be a lot of people who legitimately chose both no vehicles available and drove alone. We are not currently aware of cognitive test results showing an issue with the wording on Question 32. This is on the list of things to research, to hopefully gain insight into who these people are and what the confusion might be. For now though, I unfortunately cannot give you an answer. Best, Sarah Sarah K. Heimel Mathematical Statistician Decennial Statistical Studies Division U.S. Census Bureau 202-384-8548 ________________________________ From: Graham, Todd <todd.graham(a)metc.state.mn.us<mailto:todd.graham(a)metc.state.mn.us>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:21 AM To: Sarah K Heimel (CENSUS/DSSD FED) Subject: ACS questionnaire wording By the way Sarah... is there a team in ACSO that evaluates question wording and quality of response accuracy (or: risk of respondent error)? If so can you forward this on? I was asked earlier this month about commute mode cross-tabbed with "number of vehicles." Transportation planners are asking: how are there so many workers driving to work alone when they live in zero-vehicle households? I speculated: there could be some respondent error accruing to one of the JTW questions? The commute mode questions on the questionnaire are: * #31. How did this person usually get to work LAST WEEK? * #32. How many people, including this person, usually rode to work in the car, truck, or van LAST WEEK? If a respondent perceives a difference between being a passenger vs a driver - and thus "rode to work" vs "drove to work" - then he/she could underreport the number of vehicle occupants by -1. What does ACSO think about respondent error on question #32. Are there high-occupancy carpools that are being misreported as single-occupancy? Let me know if there's any answer - thanks for your attention to this. [EMAILLOGO.png] Todd Graham Principal Forecaster | Metropolitan Council | Regional Policy and Research todd.graham(a)metc.state.mn.us<mailto:todd.graham(a)metc.state.mn.us> P. 651.602.1322 | F. 651.602.1674 390 North Robert Street | St. Paul, MN 55101 | metrocouncil.org/data<http://www.metrocouncil.org/data> [ConWUs][FaceBook_32x32]<http://www.facebook.com/MetropolitanCouncil>[Twitter_32x32]<http://twitter.com/#!/metcouncilnews>[Youtube_32x32]<http://www.youtube.com/user/MetropolitanCouncil> [EmailSU] <https://public.govdelivery.com/accounts/MNORGMETC/subscribers/new?preferenc…>

10 years

[CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle

by Cook

We are preparing an analysis of the 2006-10 CTPP flow data to support our transportation planning program. An issue that has come up is that we are seeing a small but noticeable proportion of commuters who state they have 0 vehicles available but whose primary commute mode is driving alone. Aside from the obvious explanation of making a mistake when completing the ACS survey can anyone provide thoughts on how we might explain this anomaly? Thanks Cliff Cook Clifford Cook, Planning Information Manager Cambridge Community Development Department 344 Broadway, Cambridge, MA. 02139 www.cambridgema.gov/CDD ccook(a)cambridgema.gov M: 8:30-8:00 T-Th: 8:30-5:00 F: 8:30-Noon 617/349-4656 617/349-4669 FAX 617/349-4621 TTY

10 years

Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle

by Mara Kaminowitz

I'm not sure car shares can explain this, because Cambridge (and other cities that use car share a lot) are not unique in this problem. Out of curiosity I pulled out B08141 2011-2013 (Means of Transportation to Work by Vehicles Available) by place. I looked at the percent of all workers who drove alone but who said they have no car. Range 0%-6.8% Median 0.92% Mean 1% Cambridge 1% Boston 1.6% Here are the top 5 with this anomaly. I don't know anything about car share availability in these areas. It would be interesting to see if there is a relationship. Perth Amboy city, New Jersey New Bern city, North Carolina Glen Cove city, New York Middle River CDP, Maryland Daytona Beach city, Florida Mara Kaminowitz, GISP GIS Coordinator ......................................................................... Baltimore Metropolitan Council Offices @ McHenry Row 1500 Whetstone Way Suite 300 Baltimore, MD 21230 410-732-0500 ext. 1030 mkaminowitz(a)baltometro.org www.baltometro.org -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Greta Ryan Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:51 AM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle Cliff, I was just at an ITSVA conference where Nick Hill from Car2Go spoke. Possibly these people use such a service to commute. Greta Ryan Senior Planner Richmond Regional Planning District Commission Suite 200 9211 Forest Hill Avenue Richmond VA 23235 (804) 323-2033 Richmond Regional TPO -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Cook, Cliff Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:41 AM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Cc: Krause, Henry Subject: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle We are preparing an analysis of the 2006-10 CTPP flow data to support our transportation planning program. An issue that has come up is that we are seeing a small but noticeable proportion of commuters who state they have 0 vehicles available but whose primary commute mode is driving alone. Aside from the obvious explanation of making a mistake when completing the ACS survey can anyone provide thoughts on how we might explain this anomaly? Thanks Cliff Cook Clifford Cook, Planning Information Manager Cambridge Community Development Department 344 Broadway, Cambridge, MA. 02139 www.cambridgema.gov/CDD ccook(a)cambridgema.gov M: 8:30-8:00 T-Th: 8:30-5:00 F: 8:30-Noon 617/349-4656 617/349-4669 FAX 617/349-4621 TTY _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news

10 years

Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle

by James Garner

But, was it this robust in 2006-2010? James Garner Manager, Research & Analysis Strategic Services Department Pace Suburban Bus 550 West Algonquin Road Arlington Heights, IL 60005 847.228.2307 -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Greta Ryan Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:26 AM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle No, he didn't give any numbers he was just explaining how car sharing works and what someone could use it for. He didn't explicitly say it was happening. You could probably talk with the car share company in Cambridge. I would think they would be interested in your situation. -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Cook, Cliff Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 9:10 AM To: <ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net> Subject: Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle Greta Was Nick Hill able to provide any numbers to back this up? We do have a robust car share network in Cambridge so that could be part of the answer. Cliff Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 23, 2015, at 8:52 AM, "Greta Ryan" <GRyan(a)richmondregional.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > I was just at an ITSVA conference where Nick Hill from Car2Go spoke. Possibly these people use such a service to commute. > > Greta Ryan > > Senior Planner > Richmond Regional Planning District Commission Suite 200 > 9211 Forest Hill Avenue > Richmond VA 23235 > (804) 323-2033 > Richmond Regional TPO > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Cook, Cliff > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:41 AM > To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > Cc: Krause, Henry > Subject: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle > > We are preparing an analysis of the 2006-10 CTPP flow data to support our transportation planning program. An issue that has come up is that we are seeing a small but noticeable proportion of commuters who state they have 0 vehicles available but whose primary commute mode is driving alone. Aside from the obvious explanation of making a mistake when completing the ACS survey can anyone provide thoughts on how we might explain this anomaly? > > Thanks > > Cliff Cook > > Clifford Cook, Planning Information Manager Cambridge Community Development Department > 344 Broadway, Cambridge, MA. 02139 > > www.cambridgema.gov/CDD > ccook(a)cambridgema.gov > M: 8:30-8:00 T-Th: 8:30-5:00 F: 8:30-Noon > 617/349-4656 > 617/349-4669 FAX > 617/349-4621 TTY > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ctpp-news mailing list > ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news > > > _______________________________________________ > ctpp-news mailing list > ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news

10 years

Re: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle

by Cook

Greta Was Nick Hill able to provide any numbers to back this up? We do have a robust car share network in Cambridge so that could be part of the answer. Cliff Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 23, 2015, at 8:52 AM, "Greta Ryan" <GRyan(a)richmondregional.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > I was just at an ITSVA conference where Nick Hill from Car2Go spoke. Possibly these people use such a service to commute. > > Greta Ryan > > Senior Planner > Richmond Regional Planning District Commission > Suite 200 > 9211 Forest Hill Avenue > Richmond VA 23235 > (804) 323-2033 > Richmond Regional TPO > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Cook, Cliff > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:41 AM > To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > Cc: Krause, Henry > Subject: [CTPP] Commuters Who Drive Alone but Do Have Access to a Vehicle > > We are preparing an analysis of the 2006-10 CTPP flow data to support our transportation planning program. An issue that has come up is that we are seeing a small but noticeable proportion of commuters who state they have 0 vehicles available but whose primary commute mode is driving alone. Aside from the obvious explanation of making a mistake when completing the ACS survey can anyone provide thoughts on how we might explain this anomaly? > > Thanks > > Cliff Cook > > Clifford Cook, Planning Information Manager Cambridge Community Development Department > 344 Broadway, Cambridge, MA. 02139 > > www.cambridgema.gov/CDD > ccook(a)cambridgema.gov > M: 8:30-8:00 T-Th: 8:30-5:00 F: 8:30-Noon > 617/349-4656 > 617/349-4669 FAX > 617/349-4621 TTY > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ctpp-news mailing list > ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news > > > _______________________________________________ > ctpp-news mailing list > ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > https://www.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news

10 years

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