CTPP

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Re: [CTPP] The Case for ACS, the Economic Census, sampling and Federal data-gathering

by Alan Pisarski

I really feel we do bear some of the burden of proof here. We do a terrible job of making the case for data and for the big stuff in particular - so called general purpose data are soft in their clear applications - being implicit doesn't do it. Part of the issues is just grandstanding on the part of politicians, but a big part of it is we don't tell them what we do with the stuff. Have you ever had a cocktail party conversation about, say, "why do you need to know what time I leave for work?" We are in a societal situation today where: a.) There is great fear of govt snooping and a real lack of trust b.) A massive amount of big data observation c.) AND, the contrary crazy part, of some who will divulge just about everything on their facebook etc. site. d.) And don't forget the Bureau's unwillingness to publish much of the data they collect because of disclosure. Trust me with your money and your personal data just won't work anymore. We have to do our homework and do a far better job of making the case for the growing govt need for more and more data growing out of new mandates. Alan PS the Bureau is good but not close to being best or leader in World. Stats Canada, Australian Bureau of Statistics, Netherlands Bureau of Statistics are the real leaders and a bunch more. From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Ken.Cervenka(a)dot.gov Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 5:37 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] The Case for ACS, the Economic Census, sampling and Federal data-gathering Hi Jonathan, Some excellent observations, thanks for sharing. An example of one of the underlying strengths of CTPP is that even though CTPP 2000 flow data is now 13 years old, the journey-to-work data still represents the "best available" data across the country, for use in home-based work regional travel model validation checks. I am not referring to simple HBW trip length frequency checks (for which much smaller samples, e.g., the samples available from typical household surveys), I am talking about district-to-district checks of predicted versus observed HBW person trips by (let's say) 0-vehicle, 1-vehicle and 2+ vehicle socioeconomic groups. Yes, the "observed" data is getting old, but can be "fratared" with the growth rates in population and employment to be a reasonably good representation of "current year" HBW flows. Many people think travel forecasts are way off from reality because of problems with the mode choice model and/or traffic assignment procedures, but I wonder how often the real "problem" can be traced back to trip (or activity) generation and the prediction of the zone-to-zone person trip (or activity flow) tables! The next "best available" dataset of home-to-work commuter trips is going to be the next available "five-year" CTPP, that is now very close to a public release. There will of course be concerns that the overall number of raw records in the new "five-year" CTPP is a lot less than what was obtained in CTPP 2000, but all that really means, I think, is that one must be very careful to never rely on the actual TAZ-to-TAZ numbers: but still feel very confident with the prudent aggregation of TAZ-to-TAZ numbers into locally meaningful district-to-district totals. In regards to the national sample, the new CTPP will still be a pretty huge number of records, compared to just about anything else that is not some type of "private" purchasable database. It would be a shame if the about-to-be-released set of CTPP-based TAZ-to-TAZ flows is the last one ever produced. If the NHTS sample size could come anywhere close to the CTPP sample size, then maybe one wouldn't need the CTPP, but that is not going to ever happen. Ken Cervenka FTA Office of Planning and Environment From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lupton Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 3:36 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: [CTPP] The Case for ACS, the Economic Census, sampling and Federal data-gathering The loss of Census sampling (today the ACS), the Census of Agriculture, the Economic Census, etc., would be disastrous in so many ways I find it hard to believe anyone - even deeply partisan politicians - would advocate their demise. The small gain to the Federal government's bottom line would be undercut by huge (albeit hidden) losses to the private and public sectors. The loss would be especially acute for small businesses. 1. There can be no serious doubt that Federal sample products leverage their cost many times over in benefits to the economy. The benefits are so widespread, and so implicit, that the burden of proof must lie on anyone attempting to undo Federal data-gathering. And they will find no such proof. 2. The U.S. government has, in the past, set the world standard for data-gathering. The widespread availability of free, accurate data runs hand-in-hand with upholding the standard as the world's foremost democratic society. To surrender the ACS and related products is not just a bad idea, it is a retreat from leadership. 3. Answering ACS forms, or any other Federal questionnaire, is a matter of personal responsibility. To survive, democracy depends not just on the protection of personal rights; it also demands a sense of responsibility by its citizens. 4. I have never heard of anyone going to prison, or even being fined, for failing to provide data to Census takers. Everyone knows that there are people and businesses which refuse to cooperate; the practice of non-compliance is already tolerated. But compliance is the law, and this sets a tone of legality which allows the ACS and other projects to gather the necessary data. 5. If the data business becomes mostly private in nature, the cost of obtaining data will largely limit its availability to large corporations that could afford to purchase it, creating another disadvantage to small businesses and business start-ups. 6. Here in Little Rock we host one of the country's largest data-gathering agencies, the Acxiom Corporation. It's an open secret that Acxiom, and other companies like it, hold vast amounts of data about just about everybody. While Census data is protected by confidentiality laws, disturbingly intimate corporate data can be sold to the highest bidder. 7. While the anti-census anti-government lobby argues unconvincingly about government as "Big Brother," there is therefore another, less accountable version of "Big Brother," existing in secret corporate data-gathering. Such data could become the only basis for information about our society. Without Federal laws, and Executive and Congressional oversight, who could prevent this private data from being falsified? Without the credibility of ACS and related programs as a "cross-check," false information could be fed into the system, and could be manipulated by private power brokers. 8. Here in Little Rock we have a small spinoff company which has used Acxiom data to attempt census-like products. Around 2009, they privately gave me a total for the state's largest county (Pulaski) that disagreed with my careful estimates. They ended up being high by about 7 percent, compared with the Census 2010 count that appeared a few months later. My own estimate, based on housing records, was within 1 or 2 percent. A corporate representative thought their figures were inarguably correct; I thought their methods for counting people were flawed. Guess who was right. 9. Data-gathering by the Census Bureau and related agencies isn't perfect, but it has oversight through the democratic process. I'll trust a process that's been around since 1790 before I trust a private company that answers first to shareholders. It is my earnest hope that the effort to kill the ACS is so blatantly foolish that it will never make it to a vote by the U.S. Congress or Senate. I ask those who keep their ear to Congress to please keep the data community well-informed about this disturbing development. Jonathan Lupton AICP Research Planner Metroplan Little Rock, Arkansas 501-372-3300 __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8345 (20130517) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8350 (20130519) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com

12 years, 2 months

Re: [CTPP] Training Opportunity - CTPP2000 refresher webinar Wed.May 22, 2013 - 3:00 Eastern

by John-Paul Hopman

12 years, 2 months

Re: [CTPP] Training Opportunity - CTPP2000 refresher webinar Wed. May 22, 2013 - 3:00 Eastern

by Liang.Long.CTR＠dot.gov

Hi, Diana May 22, Wednesday's training is for CTPP2000. That's why we call it a refresher. Once the CTPP 2006-2010 is launched in August 2013, we will do training on new CTPP then. Thanks, Liang ________________________________________ From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] on behalf of Diana Portillo [diana.portillo(a)dot.ca.gov] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 2:31 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Training Opportunity - CTPP2000 refresher webinar Wed. May 22, 2013 - 3:00 Eastern Hi Penelope, As I understand this training is for CTPP 2000 not 2010...right? Since there will be a new access tool for 2006-2010, training will not be available until tool is launched. Diana Portillo, Research Program Specialist Office of Travel Forecasting and Analysis Division of Transportation Planning 916-653-3182 "Weinberger, Penelope" <pweinberger(a)aashto.org> Sent by: <ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net> 05/17/2013 12:48 PM Please respond to <ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net> To "ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net" <ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net>, "TMIP-L(a)LISTSERV.TMIPONLINE.ORG" <TMIP-L(a)LISTSERV.TMIPONLINE.ORG> cc "Murakami, Elaine" <Elaine.Murakami(a)dot.gov> Subject [CTPP] Training Opportunity - CTPP2000 refresher webinar Wed. May 22, 2013 - 3:00 Eastern Hello Data People, Training Opportunity - CTPP2000 refresher webinar Wed. May 22, 2013 - 3:00 Eastern In anticipation of the release of CTPP 5 year data based on 2006 to 2010 ACS (with which we know you will want to do trend analysis…) CTPP is presenting a refresher on accessing, using and understanding the CTPP2000 data package. This webinar is free to attend, does not require registration, and will be recorded for future posting. The webinar room and phone line are limited to 100 participants, so please attend this technical training if you would like a refresher course on CTPP2000, and plan to arrive on time. We will discuss the contents and caveats of the data set, and show a demo of accessing the data through the embedded software. The web address for this training is: https://connectdot.connectsolutions.com/ctpp1 The call in number is: 1-888-675-2535 Pc = 5860415# Penelope Z. Weinberger CTPP Program Manager AASHTO 202-624-3556 ctpp.transportation.org _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)ryoko.chrispy.net http://ryoko.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news

12 years, 2 months

Re: [CTPP] Training Opportunity - CTPP2000 refresher webinar Wed. May 22, 2013 - 3:00 Eastern

by Diana Portillo

Hi Penelope, As I understand this training is for CTPP 2000 not 2010...right? Since there will be a new access tool for 2006-2010, training will not be available until tool is launched. Diana Portillo, Research Program Specialist Office of Travel Forecasting and Analysis Division of Transportation Planning 916-653-3182 "Weinberger, Penelope" <pweinberger(a)aashto.org> Sent by: <ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net> 05/17/2013 12:48 PM Please respond to <ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net> To "ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net" <ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net>, "TMIP-L(a)LISTSERV.TMIPONLINE.ORG" <TMIP-L(a)LISTSERV.TMIPONLINE.ORG> cc "Murakami, Elaine" <Elaine.Murakami(a)dot.gov> Subject [CTPP] Training Opportunity - CTPP2000 refresher webinar Wed. May 22, 2013 - 3:00 Eastern Hello Data People, Training Opportunity - CTPP2000 refresher webinar Wed. May 22, 2013 - 3:00 Eastern In anticipation of the release of CTPP 5 year data based on 2006 to 2010 ACS (with which we know you will want to do trend analysis…) CTPP is presenting a refresher on accessing, using and understanding the CTPP2000 data package. This webinar is free to attend, does not require registration, and will be recorded for future posting. The webinar room and phone line are limited to 100 participants, so please attend this technical training if you would like a refresher course on CTPP2000, and plan to arrive on time. We will discuss the contents and caveats of the data set, and show a demo of accessing the data through the embedded software. The web address for this training is: https://connectdot.connectsolutions.com/ctpp1 The call in number is: 1-888-675-2535 Pc = 5860415# Penelope Z. Weinberger CTPP Program Manager AASHTO 202-624-3556 ctpp.transportation.org _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)ryoko.chrispy.net http://ryoko.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news

12 years, 2 months

Re: [CTPP] The Case for ACS, the Economic Census, sampling and Federal data-gathering

by Ed Christopher

Martin--forget the 'MAY send' just send it! I know I may going out on a limb here but for me the strongest argument that gets over looked in all of this is that our country and public policy is built upon participles of democracy. Embedded in those principles is the notion that public policy is open to debate by both the "aristocrats" (senate) and the more common folk (house of representatives). As the country evolved we have extended the franchise to the general public and place a high regard on having a participatory process. What all this means, is if we are going to have a participatory process, there needs to be some base line data to inform the debate that everyone will have. To do otherwise means that only some can participate which flies in the face of where our public policy has evolved. Forget budgets and logic it is a matter of principles. Catala, Martin wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > THANK YOU. > > Well said, I may send verbatim to my member of congress. > > Thank you for your thoughts…and passion. > > > > Martin Catala > > 813-974-9791 > > catala(a)cutr.usf.edu > > > > *From:* ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net > [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net] *On Behalf Of *Jonathan Lupton > *Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2013 3:36 PM > *To:* ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net > *Subject:* [CTPP] The Case for ACS, the Economic Census, sampling and > Federal data-gathering > > > > The loss of Census sampling (today the ACS), the Census of Agriculture, > the Economic Census, etc., would be disastrous in so many ways I find it > hard to believe anyone – even deeply partisan politicians – would > advocate their demise. The small gain to the Federal government’s bottom > line would be undercut by huge (albeit hidden) losses to the private and > public sectors. The loss would be especially acute for small businesses. > > 1. There can be no serious doubt that Federal sample products > leverage their cost many times over in benefits to the economy. The > benefits are so widespread, and so implicit, that the burden of proof > must lie on anyone attempting to undo Federal data-gathering. And they > will find no such proof. > > 2. The U.S. government has, in the past, set the world standard > for data-gathering. The widespread availability of free, accurate data > runs hand-in-hand with upholding the standard as the world’s foremost > democratic society. To surrender the ACS and related products is not > just a bad idea, it is a retreat from leadership. > > 3. Answering ACS forms, or any other Federal questionnaire, is a > matter of personal responsibility. To survive, democracy depends not > just on the protection of personal rights; it also demands a sense of > responsibility by its citizens. > > 4. I have never heard of anyone going to prison, or even being > fined, for failing to provide data to Census takers. Everyone knows that > there are people and businesses which refuse to cooperate; the practice > of non-compliance is already tolerated. But compliance is the law, and > this sets a tone of legality which allows the ACS and other projects to > gather the necessary data. > > 5. If the data business becomes mostly private in nature, the cost > of obtaining data will largely limit its availability to large > corporations that could afford to purchase it, creating another > disadvantage to small businesses and business start-ups. > > 6. Here in Little Rock we host one of the country’s largest > data-gathering agencies, the Acxiom Corporation. It’s an open secret > that Acxiom, and other companies like it, hold vast amounts of data > about just about everybody. While Census data is protected by > confidentiality laws, disturbingly intimate corporate data can be sold > to the highest bidder. > > 7. While the anti-census anti-government lobby argues > unconvincingly about government as “Big Brother,” there is therefore > another, less accountable version of “Big Brother,” existing in secret > corporate data-gathering. Such data could become the only basis for > information about our society. Without Federal laws, and Executive and > Congressional oversight, who could prevent this private data from being > falsified? Without the credibility of ACS and related programs as a > “cross-check,” false information could be fed into the system, and could > be manipulated by private power brokers. > > 8. Here in Little Rock we have a small spinoff company which has > used Acxiom data to attempt census-like products. Around 2009, they > privately gave me a total for the state’s largest county (Pulaski) that > disagreed with my careful estimates. They ended up being high by about 7 > percent, compared with the Census 2010 count that appeared a few months > later. My own estimate, based on housing records, was within 1 or 2 > percent. A corporate representative thought their figures were > inarguably correct; I thought their methods for counting people were > flawed. Guess who was right. > > 9. Data-gathering by the Census Bureau and related agencies isn’t > perfect, but it has oversight through the democratic process. I’ll trust > a process that’s been around since 1790 before I trust a private company > that answers first to shareholders. > > It is my earnest hope that the effort to kill the ACS is so blatantly > foolish that it will never make it to a vote by the U.S. Congress or > Senate. I ask those who keep their ear to Congress to please keep the > data community well-informed about this disturbing development. > > > > Jonathan Lupton AICP > > Research Planner > > Metroplan > > Little Rock, Arkansas > > 501-372-3300 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ctpp-news mailing list > ctpp-news(a)ryoko.chrispy.net > http://ryoko.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news -- Ed Christopher 708-283-3534 (V) 708-574-8131 (cell) FHWA RC-TST-PLN 4749 Lincoln Mall Drive, Suite 600 Matteson, IL 60443

12 years, 3 months

[CTPP] The Case for ACS, the Economic Census, sampling and Federal data-gathering

by Jonathan Lupton

The loss of Census sampling (today the ACS), the Census of Agriculture, the Economic Census, etc., would be disastrous in so many ways I find it hard to believe anyone - even deeply partisan politicians - would advocate their demise. The small gain to the Federal government's bottom line would be undercut by huge (albeit hidden) losses to the private and public sectors. The loss would be especially acute for small businesses. 1. There can be no serious doubt that Federal sample products leverage their cost many times over in benefits to the economy. The benefits are so widespread, and so implicit, that the burden of proof must lie on anyone attempting to undo Federal data-gathering. And they will find no such proof. 2. The U.S. government has, in the past, set the world standard for data-gathering. The widespread availability of free, accurate data runs hand-in-hand with upholding the standard as the world's foremost democratic society. To surrender the ACS and related products is not just a bad idea, it is a retreat from leadership. 3. Answering ACS forms, or any other Federal questionnaire, is a matter of personal responsibility. To survive, democracy depends not just on the protection of personal rights; it also demands a sense of responsibility by its citizens. 4. I have never heard of anyone going to prison, or even being fined, for failing to provide data to Census takers. Everyone knows that there are people and businesses which refuse to cooperate; the practice of non-compliance is already tolerated. But compliance is the law, and this sets a tone of legality which allows the ACS and other projects to gather the necessary data. 5. If the data business becomes mostly private in nature, the cost of obtaining data will largely limit its availability to large corporations that could afford to purchase it, creating another disadvantage to small businesses and business start-ups. 6. Here in Little Rock we host one of the country's largest data-gathering agencies, the Acxiom Corporation. It's an open secret that Acxiom, and other companies like it, hold vast amounts of data about just about everybody. While Census data is protected by confidentiality laws, disturbingly intimate corporate data can be sold to the highest bidder. 7. While the anti-census anti-government lobby argues unconvincingly about government as "Big Brother," there is therefore another, less accountable version of "Big Brother," existing in secret corporate data-gathering. Such data could become the only basis for information about our society. Without Federal laws, and Executive and Congressional oversight, who could prevent this private data from being falsified? Without the credibility of ACS and related programs as a "cross-check," false information could be fed into the system, and could be manipulated by private power brokers. 8. Here in Little Rock we have a small spinoff company which has used Acxiom data to attempt census-like products. Around 2009, they privately gave me a total for the state's largest county (Pulaski) that disagreed with my careful estimates. They ended up being high by about 7 percent, compared with the Census 2010 count that appeared a few months later. My own estimate, based on housing records, was within 1 or 2 percent. A corporate representative thought their figures were inarguably correct; I thought their methods for counting people were flawed. Guess who was right. 9. Data-gathering by the Census Bureau and related agencies isn't perfect, but it has oversight through the democratic process. I'll trust a process that's been around since 1790 before I trust a private company that answers first to shareholders. It is my earnest hope that the effort to kill the ACS is so blatantly foolish that it will never make it to a vote by the U.S. Congress or Senate. I ask those who keep their ear to Congress to please keep the data community well-informed about this disturbing development. Jonathan Lupton AICP Research Planner Metroplan Little Rock, Arkansas 501-372-3300

12 years, 3 months

[CTPP] Training Opportunity - CTPP2000 refresher webinar Wed. May 22, 2013 - 3:00 Eastern

by Weinberger

Hello Data People, Training Opportunity - CTPP2000 refresher webinar Wed. May 22, 2013 - 3:00 Eastern In anticipation of the release of CTPP 5 year data based on 2006 to 2010 ACS (with which we know you will want to do trend analysis...) CTPP is presenting a refresher on accessing, using and understanding the CTPP2000 data package. This webinar is free to attend, does not require registration, and will be recorded for future posting. The webinar room and phone line are limited to 100 participants, so please attend this technical training if you would like a refresher course on CTPP2000, and plan to arrive on time. We will discuss the contents and caveats of the data set, and show a demo of accessing the data through the embedded software. The web address for this training is: https://connectdot.connectsolutions.com/ctpp1 The call in number is: 1-888-675-2535 Pc = 5860415# Penelope Z. Weinberger CTPP Program Manager AASHTO 202-624-3556 ctpp.transportation.org

12 years, 3 months

Re: [CTPP] Update on the 5-year CTPP

by Peter Van Demark

Penny: Will there be files for download, similar to the ACS detail tables, and will they be available sooner? Peter H. Van Demark 12 Bayridge Lane Rockport MA 01966-1354 On May 17, 2013, at 1:38 PM, "Weinberger, Penelope" <pweinberger(a)aashto.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > The CTPP five year data product is coming, here is some information on it. Updates and info will be published at: http://ctpp.transportation.org/Pages/5-Year-Info.aspx > > What: > CTPP based on 5-year ACS – 2006 - 2010; residence based, workplace based, and flow data for geographies ranging from the Census TAZ or tract to the nation. > Tables include means of transportation univariate and crossed with travel time, household income, vehicle availability, age, time leaving home, and (new) presence of children, minority status, number of workers in household and median household income. A complete list of available tables can be found here: http://ctpp.transportation.org/Pages/5-Year-Info.aspx > There are plans for an API, and plans to download large files (entire states, for example) are under development. > > How: > A new data access software is being developed for the 5-year data, it will include the 3-year data, and eventually, we hope to include both older and future data sets, so they can be found in one easy place. The software will allow for table manipulation – so you can get a table looking the way you like before download, download formats will include tables, .shp files, .gml and .TAB files. The software has a robust mapping component. > > When: > A fully executed product is expected around August 2013. As of this writing, the US Census Bureau has delivered data to the software vendor and the vendor is processing it. Beta testing of the data and software is scheduled to begin in June with comments and modifications processed in July. > > Please feel free to contact me on or off list with any questions. > > Penelope Z. Weinberger > CTPP Program Manager > AASHTO > 202-624-3556 > ctpp.transportation.org > > _______________________________________________ > ctpp-news mailing list > ctpp-news(a)ryoko.chrispy.net > http://ryoko.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news

12 years, 3 months

[CTPP] Update on the 5-year CTPP

by Weinberger

Hi All, The CTPP five year data product is coming, here is some information on it. Updates and info will be published at: http://ctpp.transportation.org/Pages/5-Year-Info.aspx What: CTPP based on 5-year ACS - 2006 - 2010; residence based, workplace based, and flow data for geographies ranging from the Census TAZ or tract to the nation. Tables include means of transportation univariate and crossed with travel time, household income, vehicle availability, age, time leaving home, and (new) presence of children, minority status, number of workers in household and median household income. A complete list of available tables can be found here: http://ctpp.transportation.org/Pages/5-Year-Info.aspx There are plans for an API, and plans to download large files (entire states, for example) are under development. How: A new data access software is being developed for the 5-year data, it will include the 3-year data, and eventually, we hope to include both older and future data sets, so they can be found in one easy place. The software will allow for table manipulation - so you can get a table looking the way you like before download, download formats will include tables, .shp files, .gml and .TAB files. The software has a robust mapping component. When: A fully executed product is expected around August 2013. As of this writing, the US Census Bureau has delivered data to the software vendor and the vendor is processing it. Beta testing of the data and software is scheduled to begin in June with comments and modifications processed in July. Please feel free to contact me on or off list with any questions. Penelope Z. Weinberger CTPP Program Manager AASHTO 202-624-3556 ctpp.transportation.org

12 years, 3 months

[CTPP] 5 Year ACS 06-10 and PUMA

by Birat Pandey

My apology if someone had posted this question before, but I could not find an easy way search in the achieve ( http://ryoko.chrispy.net/pipermail/ctpp-news/). Could somebody reconfirm If 5 year ACS 06-10 is still uses 2000 PUMA boundary/code-number? If yes, then I am curious to know if is there is any plan to sink these data into the new 2010 based PUMA/code. Birat Pandey, PE Senior Transportation Engineer/Modeler Baltimore Metropolitan Council Offices @ McHenry Row 1500 Whetstone Way, Suite 300 Baltimore, MD 21230 Ph: 410-732-0500 x1050 bpandey(a)baltometro.org www.baltometro.org

12 years, 3 months

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